Fix Ingame Training

mike778
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Fix Ingame Training

Postby mike778 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:28 pm

I made a similar post as a newbie but now as a reasonably seasoned player, think this is still an issue. For me there are three serious problems with the current in-game training system.

1. It locks in team selection
For younger players to reach their potential and to slow down the regression of older players, you pretty much have to play seniors every game (certainly every SOD game) and there isn't a lot of scope for horses and courses. For me, the game would be much more enjoyable if you could play another spinner on dustbowl without worrying about it rotting the skills of your quick bowler.

2. It punishes big wins
This is maybe the biggest one. Teams who win by 10 wickets, see 81% of their batting line up not get a bat and lose out badly training wise. Often when I'm winning a game comfortably, I'll be hoping my batsmen get out and when we are bowling against much weakest teams, try and avoid taking wickets to drag the game out. This can't be good for the game surely

3. It penalises particular players
Finishers, death bowlers in particular are disadvantaged. Sure a death bowler might get 95% of their training if they bowl most of their overs. But people spend a huge amount of money on coaches to get another 5% or so.

I've no idea how easy it would be to implement (aware there are significant resource issues). Might be simply twiddling a few variables or it might be a huge job but I would like :

1. All senior games treated equally (so same training for SOD and 2020)
2. All senior games to get the training increased to the equivalent of 1 SOD and 1 2020 game
3. Ingame training per week given a max of 100% of one senior game

So basically players can play one senior game per week to get max ingame training. This partly fixes all 3 problems

1. It allows more changes in selection, you can have a 2020 specialist without it rotting away their skills. If you have a spinner and a paceman you can pick most appropriate game for them and so on.
2. If you wallop the opposition by 10 wickets its not the end of the world as the players who don't get a bat/bowl can have another game to pick up the training
3. Doesn't entirely fix the death bowler thing but if your death bowler plays the 2 games they should still get their full ingame training even if they don't bowl out.
4. And it fixes ssomething which isn't even a problem as such in that players will be less likely to regress between seasons as players can still get their max ingame training each week (the SOD before the break and the 2020 after)
Leader and supreme commander of Chester's finest (Chester Ducks) cricket team and now also manager of the mighty South African national side.

-English SOD Champions - S19, S20
-Short League Champions - S19, S20
-Runners up in English 2020 (S19) and Cup

James018
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Re: Fix Ingame Training

Postby James018 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:48 am

I'm not sure those problems are as major as you're making out. Players missing the odd game doesn't significantly impact their skill level, and the win by 10 wickets/death bowlers not getting a chance to bowl effects are really mostly a problem in DEV games. Senior games are rarely so one-sided, and if they are, as a manager you're often happy to take a minor skills hit to get a massive win with a NRR boost (it helps fatigue management, too). It's a trade-off.

That said, I'm not opposed to the changes in concept. Greater in-game training per game with a cap on the maximum possible training per week makes sense to me.

bumpuss
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Re: Fix Ingame Training

Postby bumpuss » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:21 am

Younger players train quicker anyway, so there are no issues with them.

As for older players, isn’t this the team management decision that needs to be made? Develop younger player or stick with the experienced older player?

As for finisher/death bowlers etc - I think there would be only few matches they would miss out on, so the impact on skill development is minimal. We have coaches to train these players anyway.

I think with your suggestion Mike, it would be too easy to develop young players and retain older ones.

The other issue with your suggestion wouldn’t it make it more difficult for young players to break through into the first XI? As the older players are able retain their skills longer?

I think needs more thought.

mike778
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Re: Fix Ingame Training

Postby mike778 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:28 pm

To respond to a few points

1. I don't see it particularly extending players lifespan. Most teams play senior games every game anyway (and this suggestion would mean they don't get extra if they play cup as well) as the system forces it so it probably ends up about even. The difference is now you don't have to play everyone every game, you can have a different line up for 2020 and for spin pitches. This must be a good thing.

2. Missing the odd game isn't the end of the world but if you have different line-ups for different conditions then players will miss more than the odd game. You can't have a player missing half the SOD games or it will really hurt their development.

3. OK 10 wicket wins in senior games are rare. But most teams have all rounders down the order who don't bat all the time. Plenty of times I have been watching (well sort of watching) my games hoping we lose a few wickets. Don't see how anyone can think that isn't bad for the game.

To extend the first issue. To use (word rhyming with tullhit) bingo terminology, Stumped's USP is players all have different skill and trait set-ups so aren't clones. Surely you want teams to be able to change their side and use different players for different competitions and conditions and not penalise them for it.

Its all very well saying, its up to you to try and manage games but the point of a sports management game is to win games not to "try and win games but not by too much".
Leader and supreme commander of Chester's finest (Chester Ducks) cricket team and now also manager of the mighty South African national side.

-English SOD Champions - S19, S20
-Short League Champions - S19, S20
-Runners up in English 2020 (S19) and Cup

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angeltoast
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Re: Fix Ingame Training

Postby angeltoast » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:26 am

I think this argument validates my point that friendly games should not be without consequence. Rob told me, when I suggested it a while back, that it would be open to abuse, but I'm sure that safeguards could be incorporated. In real life, every game affects player skills, fitness and experience, and also requires ground maintenance - Stumped could reflect this, to a limited extent. Training and experience could be (say) one tenth of what they would be in a competitive match, and condition could also decline by a reduced amount (one fifth, perhaps). The pitch could also deteriorate, but by a smaller amount than in competitive matches. Friendlies would then enable older players' skills to be 'topped up', and younger ones to gain a small amount of experience. If the balance was right (and, perhaps, if teams were only allowed to play one game per day - competitive or friendly) teams would not benefit excessively from playing friendlies.
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mike778
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Re: Fix Ingame Training

Postby mike778 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:32 pm

angeltoast wrote:I think this argument validates my point that friendly games should not be without consequence. Rob told me, when I suggested it a while back, that it would be open to abuse, but I'm sure that safeguards could be incorporated. In real life, every game affects player skills, fitness and experience, and also requires ground maintenance - Stumped could reflect this, to a limited extent. Training and experience could be (say) one tenth of what they would be in a competitive match, and condition could also decline by a reduced amount (one fifth, perhaps). The pitch could also deteriorate, but by a smaller amount than in competitive matches. Friendlies would then enable older players' skills to be 'topped up', and younger ones to gain a small amount of experience. If the balance was right (and, perhaps, if teams were only allowed to play one game per day - competitive or friendly) teams would not benefit excessively from playing friendlies.


Strongly disagree with this.

You don't want Stumped to be one of those activity for activity's sake game where teams have to arrange friendlies every day to get max training - sort of like mobile games where you need to log in each day to pick up your gems. Its not the answer to the issue and friendlies should be left like they are.
Leader and supreme commander of Chester's finest (Chester Ducks) cricket team and now also manager of the mighty South African national side.

-English SOD Champions - S19, S20
-Short League Champions - S19, S20
-Runners up in English 2020 (S19) and Cup

James018
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Re: Fix Ingame Training

Postby James018 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:21 pm

I've mentioned it previously but another cricket game, Cricket Championship, got into a huge tiff a little while ago because it allows people to gain in-game training from friendlies. One person started abusing it in the most extreme manner, arranging several friendlies a day which resulted in him having easily the best players in the game.

CC has eventually nerfed that in stages (making players train less effectively on low fitness, and capping in-game improvement per week). Similar measures could be taken in Stumped, but a lot of thought would have to go into it to make it viable.

mike778
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Re: Fix Ingame Training

Postby mike778 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:31 pm

James018 wrote:I've mentioned it previously but another cricket game, Cricket Championship, got into a huge tiff a little while ago because it allows people to gain in-game training from friendlies. One person started abusing it in the most extreme manner, arranging several friendlies a day which resulted in him having easily the best players in the game.

CC has eventually nerfed that in stages (making players train less effectively on low fitness, and capping in-game improvement per week). Similar measures could be taken in Stumped, but a lot of thought would have to go into it to make it viable.


It just makes arranging friendlies an admin exercise and is just a bad idea. I'd probably think about binning the game if you had to faff about arranging friendlies constantly.
Leader and supreme commander of Chester's finest (Chester Ducks) cricket team and now also manager of the mighty South African national side.

-English SOD Champions - S19, S20
-Short League Champions - S19, S20
-Runners up in English 2020 (S19) and Cup

mike778
Posts: 578
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: Fix Ingame Training

Postby mike778 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:55 pm

Today's game illustrates the problems with the system (particularly that teams are punished for playing well and finishers/death bowlers are disadvantaged).

[match]971290[/match]
http://www.stumpedgame.com/Scorecard.php?Match=971290

We played West Row Wyverns in a Division 1 game (with both teams having similar ratings) in 2020 so hardly a bot-bash. 5 of my players didn't face a ball batting wise including 2 specialist batsmen. Of the two specialist batsmen, 1 is a finisher and the other a slogger so it doesn't make sense for them to bat earlier.

With the ball, we completed 15 overs so 2 of my death bowlers just bowled an over.

I appreciate that its 2020 and training is less for 2020, I also don't want to bash the game as I enjoy it a lot. But I don't see how anyone can claim that its fair for us to take ingame training hits for nailing the game. I don't see how anyone can claim that its a good thing that we had to hope the WRW batsmen held out longer so we could bowl more overs.
Leader and supreme commander of Chester's finest (Chester Ducks) cricket team and now also manager of the mighty South African national side.

-English SOD Champions - S19, S20
-Short League Champions - S19, S20
-Runners up in English 2020 (S19) and Cup

sledge
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:30 pm

Re: Fix Ingame Training

Postby sledge » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:13 am

It's one of the reasons to promote, to get your full training which is hard in leagues full of bots. There are also valid strategies for getting more people batting (flip your order with some tweeks) and bowling some players at their non-ideal time to get the overs to get more training.

I'm not a fan of the skill decreases as they seem to kick in quick young when in reality most players keep improving and honing their skills at 30 and beyond. I'm in agreement I find the skill loss, especially for slightly older players you've finished training, when you want to play with different aggressions or bowlers on different pitches and conditions.

But - having said that the challenge then is to try to do the best you can, balancing sacrificing skill if you think it gives you an edge in a game...if that is understandable anyway lol :D

So I understand why it is as it is, it creates small differences. but then it also limits incentives to try to carry out more interesting team variations, which is effectively discouraged by the present system.

As a new player, I liked it how it is now. As a player with a couple of years in the game, I like a little variation bringing in an extra spinner, or more variation in aggressions on batsmen depending on opponent & condition. As it is I don't build more than the minimum and I only get the borderline finished training ones which I experiment with to keep it interesting. I'm well aware I'm not the best player, but I get my enjoyment - but I think soon that will taper off and it will be basic 11 men for the seniors, and the same for u21s, to try to minimise the skill loss, because ultimately, that is the easiest way to get the best performance. Maybe after 3 yrs and understanding more it will :D


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