Second characteristic that develops later

rtj45
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Re: Second characteristic that develops later

Postby rtj45 » Fri May 22, 2020 7:00 am

MOD-tonk6464 wrote:No offence but I'm not a fan of this idea.

All characteristics have negatives as well as positives. I would not want one of my star players (potential or current), who I have invested a lot of time and Stumped money into, to suddenly develop a new characteristic that weakens him. Examples of this - Finisher on a player whose skill-set is ideal for opening the batting, Death Bowler on a high accuracy, high movement, low/mediocre variation seamer. Precocious on anyone (drastically shortens the longevity of their career). Superstar on anyone (that is debatable - many people don't like superstars for the negative effect they have on the team, although some people like them). If any of the above suddenly occurred, my player would suddenly become less useful, would no longer fill the role I had planned for them, and would in many cases lose significant market value if listed on the transfer market.

Allowing a new characteristic to develop randomly could significantly impact on the decisions and investments made by managers, based on randomness. This is highly undesirable IMO.

FYI, I'm sure I'm not alone in considering every aspect of a player's skills and characteristics before deciding whether I want to player in my team long-term and what role I'd like him to play. Put a different characteristic on any given skill-set and it can change whether I want the player in my team or not.

I think the current system of Stumped characteristics works very well as it currently. Characteristics of players are fixed from the start. Managers know what they are getting when they acquire a player. I think this is very desirable and I really hope it stays this way.


Yes agreed. Summarised just as I wanted to type but hadn't. I think the balance of characteristics and how I choose them works very well, I don't want any randomness on this.
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liquefry
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Re: Second characteristic that develops later

Postby liquefry » Fri May 22, 2020 7:06 am

What if characteristics only develop if you play a matching style? Like, you start off with a blank slate, but characteristics develop as you play. eg the 'opener' characteristic develops if your player opens the batting. 'Tail clearer' develops if the player starts taking tail wickets. The characteristics could even be a scale rather than binary - like you choose it, and start out at 0, and every time you perform an action in keeping with that characteristic it goes up very slightly, but performing a characteristic against it and it goes down. Perhaps the characteristics that are not performance based (eg late bloomer/precocious) could be allocated "at birth" but the others develop over time.

There's still an element of risk but I don't mind this idea.

rtj45
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Re: Second characteristic that develops later

Postby rtj45 » Fri May 22, 2020 7:13 am

liquefry wrote:What if characteristics only develop if you play a matching style? Like, you start off with a blank slate, but characteristics develop as you play. eg the 'opener' characteristic develops if your player opens the batting. 'Tail clearer' develops if the player starts taking tail wickets. The characteristics could even be a scale rather than binary - like you choose it, and start out at 0, and every time you perform an action in keeping with that characteristic it goes up very slightly, but performing a characteristic against it and it goes down. Perhaps the characteristics that are not performance based (eg late bloomer/precocious) could be allocated "at birth" but the others develop over time.

There's still an element of risk but I don't mind this idea.


But then you devalue traits because they arent random, the only way it works is if they are random, and then you have much bigger problems as tonks mentioned.
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liquefry
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Re: Second characteristic that develops later

Postby liquefry » Fri May 22, 2020 10:28 am

as another option, how about trainable characteristics, like in Football Manager? So not automatically gained through experience (although I still kind of like that idea) but specifically targeted with the corresponding decision to give up a training slot for it.

rtj45
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Re: Second characteristic that develops later

Postby rtj45 » Fri May 22, 2020 10:54 am

liquefry wrote:as another option, how about trainable characteristics, like in Football Manager? So not automatically gained through experience (although I still kind of like that idea) but specifically targeted with the corresponding decision to give up a training slot for it.


but this still doesn't address the point above that it then devalues traits :P - if you have a choice on traits you can just train or get the ones you want and it devalues a good trait, making it less desirable and hence reduces market prices for certain players.

I honestly don't think random or trainable traits is a good idea following tonks posts above for the reasons of randomness ruins the already currently balanced trait setup and making them choose-able then devalues good traits. If there is a solution that avoids both of these?
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conradij
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Re: Second characteristic that develops later

Postby conradij » Fri May 22, 2020 1:47 pm

Perhaps a second trait emerging is part of the precocious and large bloomer traits, exclusively. For the former it emerges at 16, for the latter at 21.

And / or 'trait yet to be determined' is displayed for some players when they join. These then emerge at a later point.
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Re: Second characteristic that develops later

Postby liquefry » Fri May 22, 2020 11:02 pm

I dont understand the argument - traits are random at the moment. Is everyone worried about the value of their current players? It's not like existing traits will be devalued. It will just mean that, over time, you'll be less likely to have a player with amazing skills ruined by terrible characteristics. Trainable/selectable/developing traits might have a short term impact but you'd bring them in for new pulls exclusively, so your existing 20 year olds (or even 16 year olds) will not change in value for years. Surely more great players in the game is a good thing in the long run.

rtj45
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Re: Second characteristic that develops later

Postby rtj45 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:37 am

liquefry wrote:I dont understand the argument - traits are random at the moment. Is everyone worried about the value of their current players? It's not like existing traits will be devalued. It will just mean that, over time, you'll be less likely to have a player with amazing skills ruined by terrible characteristics. Trainable/selectable/developing traits might have a short term impact but you'd bring them in for new pulls exclusively, so your existing 20 year olds (or even 16 year olds) will not change in value for years. Surely more great players in the game is a good thing in the long run.


Similarly I dont understand the need for traits that develop over time. I don't get what there is to gain from it for us managers, the system for characteristics is already very balanced imo and the randomness of what a player is born with causes the intrigue. If you can train them then I feel it takes away from this element of initial intrigue and makes managers who have worked harder to focus on certain traits less meaningful.

I feel if you change it you upset a few managers (myself included) who've spent quite a few seasons building around players with certain traits, which isnt obtainable unless you really try to do so in my opinion. Training traits devalues that advantage some managers have built up.
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mike778
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Re: Second characteristic that develops later

Postby mike778 » Sat May 23, 2020 9:38 am

DEV-R0b1et wrote:mostly because it makes a mockery of the name.


No. It would mean that potential is an indication of how good your scouts/coaches think the player will become. What they think the potential is likely to be, not what they know it will be. Note this relates to potential changing (not the second characteristic). Like I said , didn't expect that to be popular.

You get a couple of different camps with youth development. Some people like everything known - no random or unknowns. Personally I prefer a little bit unknown. You don't know exactly what a player can become when they are 15, some of it should be wait and see. This applies to all of this - potentials increasing, new charactaristics and so on.

My take is that ... if you want to know exactly what you are buying then you buy an off-the-shelf senior player. If you buy a DEV player then there should be an element of the unknown. Part of the fun is seeing how they will develop.
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