Top & Middle Order Collapses & Batting Depth

liquefry
Posts: 814
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Top & Middle Order Collapses & Batting Depth

Postby liquefry » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:45 am

Mine was way higher as my home pitch was a road. Until this season... explains a lot.

Stomalomalus
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Top & Middle Order Collapses & Batting Depth

Postby Stomalomalus » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:04 am

Zorax wrote:
Stomalomalus wrote:
Season before last, I missed out on the SOD title by 1 ball. Season before that, I came 2nd. This season, I've been poor. So I wanted to discover why. The main difference is in solidity.

I knew the past 2 seasons that when Sheldon or Tampoe got out, I could forge a new partnership. This season, that's not been happening. So what changed?

I haven't drastically changed tactics. Mainly I've moved some players around slightly and improved both my bowling and tail batting by spending 2m on an excellent bowler who can bat.

So one of those 2 changes has caused a massive fluctuation in performance. I'm not satisfied it's not the latter, but the former is definitely an option. Yet the main differences are moving Kinchin up the order to where he really belongs, and swapping around Bradfield and Anand as the latter becomes better.

I also noticed something in these 3 games: my #4 and #6 are getting out cheaply, no matter who occupies that position.

However, this is a small sample size. Bradfield's batting stats are lower than last season (coupled with an increase in bowling performance), but Malone is better, and Kinchin has been better, too. Subbanna, meanwhile, has seen a drastic drop. In fact, this season, I have 3 players at or around 50 average, Kinchin at 40, and then a big gap to anyone else (discounting Mason's 40+ average at 8 or 9, which has come in fewer games and with a lot of N/Os).

So, suddenly, 3 players are scoring the majority of my runs, compared to last season, when Sheldon aside, we scored relatively evenly. In fact, 8 players breached a 30 average, while this season, only 4 have (discounting Mason, again).

That does suggest I've suddenly started losing my middle order cheaply. Especially as the 4 players with good enough averages generally play in positions 1-4.


I try to think of my batting lineup as a unit rather than individual players, and focus on the output of the unit as a whole, or the performance of the unit in different stages of the innings.

Who actually ends up scoring a lot of runs depends on so many factors it may as well be random. For example - a top order that can consistently play out 30 overs between them leaves the lower and middle order less time to make an impact. A seamer friendly wicket is going to result in lower averages for your Top 3. Spinner friendly wickets will result in more collapses towards the end of an innings against teams that have decent spinners. Your end-of-season player stats will be influenced by all this. The best batsmen statistically at the end of a season are often not the best batsmen skill wise, it's just the guy who had the best opportunities to score runs.

But if you look at your lineup as a unit, you can see which part of the lineup isn't functioning well. If you notice your middle order as a whole is struggling to capitalize on platforms set by your top order, then you can review if the individuals in there have the skills necessary, or if you need to review the orders you give them. As Mike pointed out, it seems your lineup is low on attacking skill. If the players in your middle/lower order are often being put into situations where they will look to use their attacking skills more frequently, then that could explain why they're under performing?

In the second game, I don't think there is anything quite concerning. Kinchin was dismissed by Gooch, Malone played an attacking shot and failed vs Giddings, Tampoe run out (happens a lot in stumped), and Anand nicked my partnership breaking part-timer behind. Subbanna and Bradfield rebuilt, before the tail got wiped out. Ultimately you batted 50 overs for 260 with a MAS of 254.

In the first game Bikswing and Gooch wrecked havoc with the new ball, with Anand getting runout to boot. That happens sometimes. The Subbanna/Bradfield partnership was broken by my rubbish leggie, another runuout happened, and the tail was wiped out by my tail-clearer specialist.


My middle order has low attack because of Bradfield. I basically have 5 top order bats, 2 with poor stamina... who happen to be keeper and ar.

So they’re lower down the order, though Bradfield did have some success at 2 before, Tampoe is just better there.

In fact, all 4 have had more success at 2/3 than lower down. It’s one reason I’ve been trying to find attacking bats forever. And why Kinchin is up for offer.
Manager of Pest CCC and Assistant to England NT
National Caps:
Ali Azmat (Pakistan) 9ODI, 3T20I, Kenny Sheldon (England) 7ODI, Andrew Bradfield (England) 5ODI, 4T20I, Firoz Subbanna (Bangladesh) 14T20I

Zorax
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Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:30 am

Re: Top & Middle Order Collapses & Batting Depth

Postby Zorax » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:30 am

I reckon you've figured out why your lineup keeps misfiring right there

It's the fun thing about Stumped. Not enough to have good players, you got to find them the right roles as well.
Zorax CC | Free HK
Five Demands, Not One Less
Learn more Here

Stomalomalus
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Top & Middle Order Collapses & Batting Depth

Postby Stomalomalus » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:28 pm

So I wanted to give an update on this and the progress since.

I have made a few changes to the team since these friendlies.

1) I dropped my default MAS by about 20 runs. While I think this is too low as an actual minimum score, I still score fast enough to easily beat it if my batsmen don't get out cheaply.
2) I sold one of my top order bats (Kinchin) and shuffled my order to put 4 more defensive bats at 1-4, then 3 more attacking bats at 5-7.
3) I shifted most aggression toward neutral, with a few exceptions.

Results since:

I suffered my first SOD loss since these friendlies on Friday (against the same team I suffered my previous loss, gah)
My top 4 have set big platforms in all these matches, scoring at a rate under 1 a ball, but still competitive.
My middle order have then cashed in on this, with big, quick scores coming regularly from Malone.
In the one game I did collapse - going from 116-1 to 144-8, I still passed my MAS, with my bottom 3 scoring massively with 34, 51* and 25*. I still lost, bah.

Takeaways:

1) Don't shoehorn players into roles they're not suited for. If your star AR is a defensive bat with poor stamina, still bat him at 3 and just drop him down to 10 if he's low on energy, don't hide him in the middle orders with high aggression.
2) Your MAS is not actually a representation of your wanted score. In the 5 games since, my MAS has been 238, 229, 242, 234, 242. My scores were 308, 285, 316, 430, 252.
Whereas, when it was set at 250+, I was regularly collapsing to scores around that mark against similar standard opposition.

To me, it seems that sweet spot for MAS is around the 230-240 mark now, whereas before I was basing it on real life (yes, I previously have set it up close to 300).

I hope this can help some players improve their tactics slightly. I know my findings during this time helped me, and thanks to input from Zorax, rtj, mike, and others.
Manager of Pest CCC and Assistant to England NT
National Caps:
Ali Azmat (Pakistan) 9ODI, 3T20I, Kenny Sheldon (England) 7ODI, Andrew Bradfield (England) 5ODI, 4T20I, Firoz Subbanna (Bangladesh) 14T20I

rtj45
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:31 am
Location: Dorset

Re: Top & Middle Order Collapses & Batting Depth

Postby rtj45 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:57 pm

Stomalomalus wrote:So I wanted to give an update on this and the progress since.

I have made a few changes to the team since these friendlies.

1) I dropped my default MAS by about 20 runs. While I think this is too low as an actual minimum score, I still score fast enough to easily beat it if my batsmen don't get out cheaply.
2) I sold one of my top order bats (Kinchin) and shuffled my order to put 4 more defensive bats at 1-4, then 3 more attacking bats at 5-7.
3) I shifted most aggression toward neutral, with a few exceptions.

Results since:

I suffered my first SOD loss since these friendlies on Friday (against the same team I suffered my previous loss, gah)
My top 4 have set big platforms in all these matches, scoring at a rate under 1 a ball, but still competitive.
My middle order have then cashed in on this, with big, quick scores coming regularly from Malone.
In the one game I did collapse - going from 116-1 to 144-8, I still passed my MAS, with my bottom 3 scoring massively with 34, 51* and 25*. I still lost, bah.

Takeaways:

1) Don't shoehorn players into roles they're not suited for. If your star AR is a defensive bat with poor stamina, still bat him at 3 and just drop him down to 10 if he's low on energy, don't hide him in the middle orders with high aggression.
2) Your MAS is not actually a representation of your wanted score. In the 5 games since, my MAS has been 238, 229, 242, 234, 242. My scores were 308, 285, 316, 430, 252.
Whereas, when it was set at 250+, I was regularly collapsing to scores around that mark against similar standard opposition.

To me, it seems that sweet spot for MAS is around the 230-240 mark now, whereas before I was basing it on real life (yes, I previously have set it up close to 300).

I hope this can help some players improve their tactics slightly. I know my findings during this time helped me, and thanks to input from Zorax, rtj, mike, and others.


I don't think I've helped much!

If it helps though... :mrgreen: ... I've set my MAS at around 180-200 recently (and even lower on my affiliate) and I've won more games than I care to think against good teams. MAS is a curse if u get it wrong so just make sure that u don't get it wrong, and then u've got to be half right.
Manager of West Row Wyverns
Winner of the grand slam in season 13 (Dev, T20, SOD, Cup, International)
Breeder of Peach #1 bowler in the world.
Mainly does some England management stuff

liquefry
Posts: 814
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Top & Middle Order Collapses & Batting Depth

Postby liquefry » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:03 pm

This helps me too actually... I always thought that "minimum acceptable score" is the lowest score I thought we might be able to defend. You know, a minimum acceptable score. Which varied between pitches but was often more than 300. But it appears to be some sort of aggression multiplier that pushes early/mid aggression way too much if you set it at a defensible level. I am still working it out for my team but yeah I'm needing to drop it by 25% or more based on this thread!

DEV-R0b1et
Site Admin
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Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:16 pm

Re: Top & Middle Order Collapses & Batting Depth

Postby DEV-R0b1et » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:19 am

liquefry wrote:This helps me too actually... I always thought that "minimum acceptable score" is the lowest score I thought we might be able to defend. You know, a minimum acceptable score. Which varied between pitches but was often more than 300.


That is what its meant to be... the batsaim to get to at least that, taking more risks than normal to get there if they need to.

But, why do you think your bowlers are so bad?


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